Interview by Hans Ulrich Obrist, written by Ann-Kathrin Riedl Colette Lumiere: “Fight terror with glamour” "Creating art is like giving birth," says Colette Lumiere. In her case, this statement holds particular significance. Colette as Countess Reichenbach, Munich, 1987. Courtesy of the artist and Company Gallery, New York Interview by Hans Ulrich Obrist, written by Ann-Kathrin Riedl The pioneering American Tunisian born artist became famous for her groundbreaking work in performance art and installation, which challenged traditional boundaries between life and art, focusing on the construction of identity and the self. As the dazzling star of New York's avant-garde art scene of the 1970s, Colette started her "living environment" series, transforming her studio into a dreamlike installation where she also lived, surrounded by fabric, mirrors and baroque elements. In the 1978, Colette staged her own symbolic "death" and was reborn as a new persona, Justine - the starting point of a new chapter in her artistic journey. Her exploration of self-reinvention and the role of women in art and society influenced generations of performance and feminist artists. In Fräulein's EGO issue, she reflects on her turbulent life and legacy in conversation with Hans Ulrich Obrist - artistic director of the Serpentine in London and one of the most important curators of our time. Justine in the Windows of K&O Dept Store. Windows to promote new LP. Graz, 1979. Courtesy of the artist and Company Gallery, New York Hans Ulrich Obrist: How did it all begin? How did you come to art? Or how did art come to you? Was there an epiphany? I'm asking because you started really early. Colette Lumiere: I’m not sure how to explain it, but I felt a very strong calling from the beginning. I wasn’t quite sure what it was, but I knew it was an artistic one. What was the first work you were happy with? Where would your catalogue raisonné begin? I started as a painter and I had a unique vision. Even my paintings were not classifiable and did not fit with the trend of the time. My work often made references to art history, mythology, literature. Some of the titles were “The Reincarnation of Nefertiti,” “The High Priestess.” etc. My work revolved around these mystical themes. But my very first paintings showed people behind bars. You painted people behind prison bars? Yes. I was then living with a boyfriend, we were both very young, in love and planned to marry. Although I loved him, I feared entrapment. Freedom seemed necessary for me to evolve into a great artist. I was in a real conflict and I had to make a decision. I even painted a work called “The Decision” soon after the break up. The last painting before I left my fiancé still showed bars. But they were more transparent. It was a self portrait of myself reclining with eyes closed and a birdcage left open. A little later, the paintings evolved into lightboxes. Enclosure, once again. To me, it symbolized the human condition, the one Nietzsche and other mystics spoke about. How we are imprisoned, but in order to be set free, we first have to become aware of it. Colette Lumière photographed by Heather Sten. Courtesy of the artist and Company Gallery, New York Introduction of Mata Hart and The Stolen Potatoes. Visual Art Band #6. First Appearance at Danceteria, 1983. Courtesy of the artist and Company Gallery, New York “I don’t view life – or art, for that matter – as having a beginning or an end.” Justine in Coletteʼs Tomb holding an LP. PS1 MoMA, 1978. Courtesy of the artist and Company Gallery, New York You later did amazing tableaux vivants. They’re environments, like a Gesamtkunstwerk! You called the style “Minimal Baroque.” How did you start doing these rooms? At first, I became recognized for my street paintings. I got my first press from using the streets as canvases, anonymously. But somehow, my identity was discovered. Some Fluxus artists like Al Hansen and Bob Watts took great interest in them. It was about the exterior, whereas the rooms were more about the interior. I was told that you really lived in one of those rooms every day. Oh, yes! I lived inside an evolving art work for years. I transformed it the way a painter would paint over the same canvas. Just as I was using the streets as a canvas, I was also transforming my living space. I discovered parachute silk, very inexpensive. Little by little, I covered my whole space and I developed one of my trademarks – the ruching of soft treated silks, satins and other fabrics. At some point, “the inner sculpture” was completed! Only to be transformed over and over again. There was soft lighting and hardly any furniture. The bed was embedded into the floor. It was very pure and I named the style “Minimal Baroque.” I also began using the windows of galleries, shops and department stores to create. Windows are like large scale lightboxes. There’s a private, personal element to my work, and yet a part of me wants to be very public. Coming back to the street works. I grew up in Zurich. In the 80s, there was the “Sprayer von Zürich,” Harald Naegeli. He is a pioneering street artist and got arrested many times. Can you talk about your own experiences? I was a young female artist and there weren’t many women ruling the art world then. I went to the Art Students League, known for its traditional teachings, but mostly so I would have a space to work. I did not feel at home there and did not relate to the students or professors. At the same time, I was meeting all these amazing people at Max’s Kansas City and the Spring Street Bar in Soho NYC. One could find anyone at Max’s, from Mick Jagger to David Bowie to Andy Warhol. Regulars at the Spring Street Bar were Robert Smithson, Carl Andre, Richard Serra and Larry Poons. They were all there drinking and arguing! One late night, I was out with a group of people. Early morning hours. Nobody knew where to go when the club closed. I had just completed my living environment and was not quite ready to share it with the world, but my friend was very insistent in bringing these strangers to my home. Immediately after entering this other universe, they proclaimed: “We’re opening a new gallery. You must create something like this for our space.” The rest is history. For my solo exhibition at Stefonatty Gallery in 1973, I exhibited 16 huge self portraits titled “The Sand Women.” In the other room, I created an environment. I laid there with eyes closed as the gypsy in “The Transformation of the Sleeping Gypsy without the Lion” after Rousseau’s painting. The exhibition was a turning point. I was represented in an established art arena and became internationally recognized. To get back to your question: During the duration of the exhibition, one very early morning, I painted my later famous “Lips” on West 57 Street, that could be seen from the gallery, and I got arrested just as I was completing them. The initial inspiration for my street art was from a film I began to make – about a young woman that fell from earth and her effort to communicate with her friends in outer space. She (I) would paint these symbols that I called my “personal hieroglyphics.” Clearance Sale. Installation View. Gillesby de Laage Gallery, Paris, 1977. Courtesy of the artist and Company Gallery, New York Beautiful Dreamer LP Front released by Justine of The Colette is Dead Co., 1979. Courtesy of the artist and Company Gallery, New York There are so many dimensions to your work. At the moment, the art world is more connected to fashion and brands constantly do collaborations with artists. But in the 70s, it was highly unusual. You were a pioneer in bringing both together. What’s the bridge for you between art and fashion? Well, I don’t view life – or art, for that matter – as having a beginning or an end. It’s always an organic process for me. When I created my rooms, I became a part of them. It was only natural to create costumes to complete the whole vision. So you became part of the sculpture – a living sculpture, so to speak. Exactly. I was a sculpture within a sculpture. There was a great exhibition in 1975 at Rizzoli bookstore: “Fashion as Fantasy.” It brought the biggest artists from different fields together: photographers, fashion designers and visual artists. I was invited to participate as a young artist who had already acquired an international reputation. I was supposed to show an installation, but Karl Lagerfeld stole my space. I still outshined him! I posed as “Ragdoll” and caused a scandal because of my costume. I was wearing one of those corsets that you wear to soothe back pain, Victorian bloomers, lace, and Victorian boots. My breasts were exposed. It was a new look! By 1978, I saw that my art and style influenced the commercial world and was imitated by a lot of people in different arenas. But in those days, female artists who dressed up and wore red lipstick were not taken seriously. I struggled to create my next environments. They demanded a big budget and creating them took a lot out of me. So I staged my own death and it became a series of artworks – the solution to a dilemma. All great artists are dead! “We need art to help us transcend the horrors. We have the news to report them.” How did you “die”? How did that work? It was a fantasy made into reality. I was inspired by fairytales. But instead of a needle, I died by a staple gun at the Whitney Museum. I was in the middle of my installation and out of nowhere, I fell on the rug with blood on my hands. People were frightened and wondered what had happened to me. Immediately after that performance, I resurrected as Justine, my first living persona. The name was inspired by the word justice in Latin. After you died, you became someone else? Exactly. As Justine, I posed as a fashion designer, an interior decorator, and a rock star as the front woman of Justine & the Victorian Punks. I became a conceptualist of products and the head of Colette’s Estate. Artists didn’t do licensing in those days. It was a no-no. Now, it is considered prestigious to be invited by Louis Vuitton to create a product and it’s even acceptable for artists to create their own products. But back then, people thought I went commercial. I never did! The clothes you created – how did they look? They were wonderful. I was using this ragdoll look: corsets, undergarments, worn garments. That evolved into “Victorian Punk”. From 1980 to 1982 Justine began to wear her Beautiful Dreamer uniforms. It was an experiment in walking architecture. I would wear these outfits inspired by the crinkled walls of my environments religiously for two years, at home, in the streets, to nightclubs. Identity is shifty, identity is a choice. Justine was not one. Justine was many. Yes and no. Justine was created by Colette, the artist. And so were the other personas who all had a philosophy, a favorite color scheme and a special “look.” When creating them or my art, I often felt like a medium, compelled to visually manifest the messages I received. Justine was just one of the personas. She had different businesses and was multifaceted – Justine of the Colette is Dead Company, who happened to have a band and released the Beautiful Dreamer album. Just two days ago, I got a call from a music label interested in re-releasing it! In 1985, I also created ruched haute couture gowns and exhibited them at a gallery on West Broadway, “Wearable Art NYC.” They asked me to create a few for their clients – movie stars, rock stars etc. – and commissioned me to create a window to go along with the presentation. But when they placed one of their products in my window environment, I declared war! I didn’t want to get lost in the commercial industries of fashion and music. I had my hands full with continuing to create and exhibit my art in its purest form. That was my priority. “Do your thing and don’t let anybody stop you!” Justine and The Victorian Punks, First Appearances PSI MoMA, 1978. Courtesy of the artist and Company Gallery, New York And you did the “Justine’s Disco Punk Church Club.” Can you tell me about that? Well, in 1980, I lived with a German known only by his first name, Rudolf. He was, at that time, the king of nightlife – he opened ran Danceteria, the hottest club in NYC back then. I created an installation called “Fuck Art, Let’s Dance” in May 1980 for its opening. And I orchestrated a series of other multimedia performances in well known clubs in NYC like Mudd Club, Studio 54 and, later, the Palladium, which further influenced the industry of fashion, music, etc. The late Alan Jones wrote that I introduced art to the clubs. I received a lot of attention as a female artist and personality from the mainstream media; that was highly unusual at the time. In 1984, you were invited to Berlin by the DAAD. It was also the arrival of “Mata Hari and the Stolen Potatoes,” your Berlin persona. I myself was becoming part of the art scene back then and it was the first time I heard about you. Can you tell me about Mata Hari? Well, actually, she was born at Danceteria right before I left for Berlin. I was with my friends, and we agreed that a new persona was needed for Berlin. We decided on the name Mata Hari – very mysterious. Berlin still had the wall back then. But I had to add something to be a new Mata Hari. What do Germans eat? Potatoes! What was special about this character? You did installations in Berlin, exhibitions, but also opera collaborations. Mata Hari was a persona I used to create my art in Berlin. She made her first public appearance arriving in a golden Volkswagen covered with golden potatoes for the opening of her installation at a night club. A director at the Berlin Opera saw me and commissioned me to do sets and costumes. I created two big scandals while I worked for the opera. One evening, the director came knocking on my door and looked very upset. The whole opera was angry with him. They did not like or understood my vision. He told me: “I totally trusted you, but now I’m in big trouble. Help me!” So I spent the whole night writing an explanation for what I had intuitively done. The concept was explained and all were happy. The opera turned out to be a huge hit and no one had any complaints in the end. The other incident happened later, in 1985, and almost got me arrested. I used the sets and costumes to produce a music video for Mata Hari’s song, “Did U Eat?”, a love song revolving around potatoes. It turned out that I was illegally trespassing and the video was never completed to perfection – the police interrupted our first rehearsal. Love in the Closet, 1987-1991. From “Secret Lives of Count & Countess Reichenbach.” Munich, New York, 1987-1991. Courtesy of the artist and Company Gallery, New York Another year in Berlin and the DAAD let you stay there. Normally, artists are only invited for one year. But you were so much demand in Germany that they made an exception. Then you went to Munich and another persona was born: Countess Reichenbach. Exactly! I could never have been Mata Hari in Munich. It was time for a new life, a new molting. When I arrived in Munich, I was a bit like a fish out of water at the beginning. I lived on Reichenbachstraße. I had come for one man and found another. His mother was Countess Reichenbach and he was an actor at Kammerspiele. Misha posed with me as “The Count,” using the new Polaroid camera he had bought me. Later, these images evolved into three dimensional works using photography and objects and were exhibited as the series “The secret lives of Count and Countess Reichenbach” as part of the Love in Ruins exhibition opening in NYC at Rempire Gallery Soho on Valentine’s Day, 1991. So, my personal life again inspired a whole new series of works. I chose this persona because in Munich, the aristocracy seemed to still rule!? Everybody compared me to King Ludwig!? As the Countess, I began to let the city inspire me! Soon after I arrived, I was invited to “colettesize” the windows of Ludwig Beck. My haute couture dresses were for sale inside the store and I probably could have continued to do very well. But, I’ve always chosen art over commerce. I discontinued selling the gowns; creating art took all my attention. But I also found myself invited to a lot of parties. Bavarian parties. Yes! I was not so happy there. It seemed many thought it was a great idea to invite “that artist from New York” to make their party and life more exciting. Well, I had not come to Munich to entertain people. So I got a little bit bored and started creating the series “Dial C for Scandal,” where you dial an artist for a scandal. I had an opening at the Casino Restaurant and staged a long table with cakes, cactus flowers, and friends and models dressed up in my ruched dresses. The press took it seriously. In the end, I had two phone numbers because I had to change the one I gave out. But I was not interested in starting a business, I was interested in creating images about a fictional business. House of Olympia. To the Return of Chivalry and Good Manners. Mixed Media. 1993. Courtesy of the artist and Company Gallery, New York Mata Hari and the Stolen Potatoes Billboard (Retrieved Billboard). Berlin, 1984 What was the biggest scandal you produced? Probably at the opening of the service at the Casino Restaurant, but it was not planned! Misha, out of nowhere, started a fight with an old rival schoolmate of his. Hell broke loose. It was scary! A cake accidentally landed onto a reporter’s face. But the evening was a success! Soon before your departure from Munich and return to NYC, Olympia began to replace the Countess, and relocating back to NYC, it clearly evolved into the “The House of Olympia.” My Bavarian adventure reached its end; I longed to come home to my legendary atelier on Pearl Street. Even though I had taken down the original ruched satin environment in 1983, I continued to transform the space into an art installation, and so the Reichenbach Palace in Munich morphed into “The House of Olympia.” As Olympia, you “colettesized” paintings from the past. Yes, I transformed them into my style with my own alchemical process! The 18th century was the main inspiration for colettesized masterpieces from Fragonard, Boucher, Watteau. There was a reason for that. It was a time of highly political art. I remember being left out of the Whitney Annual again and again and again because I was said to not do political art. Nonsense. I was always doing political art, but not in the manner that was popular at the time – by covering current events. I prefer art that transcends time and space, elevates the spirit and yet, at the same time, reflects and comments on popular culture. The act of doing what I’m called to do, regardless of opposition or trend, in my opinion, is the most powerful. Back in NYC, I felt like bringing back chivalry and good manners was important because there had been and there still is so much confusion between the sexes. I always liked when a man would open the door for me or light my cigarette. I never had a problem with that nor did I feel less liberated because of it. I was too feminine to be understood by the feminists in the early days. But these contradictions are not uniquely mine. Sometimes, I think the world is upside down. In the 18th century, everything was very posed, but there was some charm in that. Good manners are an expression of respect, of love! We need art to help us transcend the horrors. We have the news to report them. “We are imprisoned, but in order to be set free, we first have to become aware of it.” And, at some point, Lumiere entered and brought light to the world. This persona came out of a trauma, it came out of September 11th. After September 11th, I was not allowed to go home because I lived near the towers. So I broke into my loft. Many friends thought I had died. It was then that I started to call myself Lumiere. Light was urgently needed. Light is life. Lumiere also asks us to become lighter in our approach to life, no matter the tragedy we encounter, as well as to become more resilient. I believe art can help us access a sense of wellbeing in spite of outer conditions. Lumiere has had different stages. First, my atelier was named Maison Lumiere. Displacement, uncertainty, impermanence then became prominent, recurring themes to me. Maison Lumiere was renamed Laboratoire Lumiere after I lost my legendary loft and had to destroy many of my artworks due to storage problems. My atelier now exists in the ether. We know a lot about the unrealized projects of architects because they publish them, but we know very little about artists’ unrealized projects. What are yours? Projects that were too big, too expensive, too scandalous? Number one, I prefer not to share all my secrets. However, one important project is in the process of being realized here as we speak. It is my wish for the living environment, that has survived decades of storage, to be preserved and on view in a major museum or art institution. I want to see my artwork and archive safely placed and stored. And, naturally, I would like to see a retrospective of my art alongside a publication before I leave this realm. The Heart. Street Work Spring Street and West Broadway. New York, 1973. Courtesy of the artist and Company Gallery, New York Beautiful. My last question is: What is your advice to a young artist who reads our interview? In 1974, I was asked that same question in an interview. I answered: “Marry rich.” It was kind of a joke, but I had already encountered great opposition to create my art. Anyway, I never took my own advice, as I could have married rich and never did! So it’s not your advice anymore? No! Now that you’re asking me again, my answer is: “Do your thing and don’t let anybody stop you!” It’s very simple. Live your dream and continue to do so in spite of all obstacles! Which is exactly what I have done. Are you on Instagram? I started an Instagram account a couple of years ago, it is devoted to fight the disappearance of handwriting. I ask one artist every day to handwrite something. I wanted to ask if you could write something. Something spontaneous, a message to the world. Here we go – Maison Lumiere’s famous motto: “Fight terror with glamour.” Read Next Siniša: Just Don’t Take Them Seriously Marina Mónaco: A Leap Of Curiosity Berlin Rising: Designers Who Defined Berlin Fashion Week SS26